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Free Speech in Jeopardy in BC

edited June 2008 in General
Well, here it is.

There is the article that is SO DANGEROUS, that BC law must (potentially) deem it illegal. It is a very well written, thoughtful article in McLean's about Islam's growing power in Canada, and about the dangers that might pose. And some pathetic BC law has deemed it "hate speech," and its right to exist is about to go on trial.

This is a fucking disgrace.

Here's the law, in all its brain-paralyzing inanity:
BC Act Human Rights Code Section 7-1 said:
A person must not publish, issue or display, or cause to be published, issued or displayed, any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other representation that
(a) indicates discrimination or an intention to discriminate against a person or a group or class of persons, or
(b) is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt
because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age of that person or that group or class of persons.
Let me condense that down for you:
"A person may not publish... any statement... that... is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt."
Once more, with verve:
"A person may not publish... any statement... that... is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt."
Dear holy Jebus, that's terrifying. These dip shits actually think this is a defensible, enforceable law? I may not publish anything which subjects others to contempt? My God, I'm literally fugitive, then. Because I've written many articles for various papers doing just, and in some cases only, that.

I'm amazed I haven't heard of this before now. The Peak is about to get a very vulgar, very rambling, very angry opinions piece. :p
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Comments

  • edited June 2008
    Morro;31461 said:
    Once more, with verve:
    "A person may not publish... any statement... that... is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt."
    Isn't this a little subjective and base heavily on a person's interpretation? I mean, even the most innocent statement can be controversial and offensive to some.

    I mean, I can argue that anything can expose anyone to hatred or contempt...

    1.) English as a Second Language program. This program in itself is racist and reminds me of South Africa's aparteid. However, this program would also expose their students to hatred because some may argue that it is taking away funding from non-ESL students.

    2.) New immigrant's requirement to take the Canadian Citizenship test. Well, some may argue that these tests take away funding from other social programs.

    In conclusion, anything can be offensive to some and you just need to backup your statements and you will be home free. Therefore, don't worry, be happy. You worry too much.
    Dear holy Jebus, that's terrifying. These dip shits actually think this is a defensible, enforceable law? I may not publish anything which subjects others to contempt?
    My God, I'm literally fugitive, then. Because I've written many articles for various papers doing just, and in some cases only, that.
    This brings me to another point that I am going to make in my don't worry, be happy argument. Seeing that you haven't been persecuted yet, I am pretty sure that only extremely outragous statement can get you in trouble. Also, the law said you can't publish anything that can expose "a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt." You mentioned that you have written papers "doing just, and in come cases only, that." Are you sure that your paper is really offensive and that you are not engaging in self-censorship? I am pretty sure that you didn't write those paper to spread hate or contempt.


    For example, I have written a paper critical of Germany's treatment of their Turkish migrant workers and how they should improve their treatment of these foreign workers. Am I SERIOUSLY subjecting the German nation to contempt? Well, I would argue that I am stating mere facts and I have a whole list of evidences to back me up.
    I'm amazed I haven't heard of this before now. The Peak is about to get a very vulgar, very rambling, very angry opinions piece. :p
    Funny that you mention the Peak. After the new editor took over, they rarely, if ever, run letters from non-Peak writers anymore.
  • edited June 2008
    Man, seriously, please think about the intent behind people's words before responding. I wasn't saying that I was worried the government was going to come get me, I was saying that the government is a gaggle of hippocritical retards. I was using myself as an example of someone who does not respect this bullshit law.

    As to only getting in trouble if I make an "extremely outrageous statement," that's the whole point. Discourse is built solely and specifically on extremely outrageous statements. It's the right of every citizen to ramble hatefully and inchoherently, if they wish to do so. It's also the right of every other citizen to call them stupid. That's how free expression works.

    This case puts that on trial. It takes a needle-dicked law and tries to sodomize our nation's self-respect with it.

    As to the Peak, I think it's just that it's the summer semester, and they get very few submissions at this time of year.

    Anyway, here's what I wrote on the subject. Kinda jumbled, but I'm tossing it out in between homework assignments.
    Me said:
    McLean’s magazine is under attack from pitiful religious fanatics for an article warning of Islam’s rapidly increasing influence in Eastern Canada. This week could see it acquitted of all charges. But, let’s go back a bit.

    It was in 2005 that the Canadian government officially stopped supporting free expression as a virtue, and allied itself with the international forces of political and religious censorship. 2005 was the year that we deported a detestable little toad named Ernst Zündel, a German national and rabidly anti-Semitic holocaust denier. Though he lived in Canada for forty years, Zündel’s views kept him from ever gaining Canadian citizenship. Since he wasn’t a citizen, it was possible to deport him to Germany under the guise of being a national security risk – “Oh no! Not ideas!” – and he was there convicted of “Incitement to Holocaust Denial,” which is apparently a crime, there.

    As pathetic and lily-livered as this makes us and our feigned commitment to freedom of speech, it is at least somewhat emotionally satisfying. Zündel was such an animal that he once told a holocaust survivor: “…we are gonna get you yet, don't you worry.” No matter the strength of your high-minded commitment to freedom, there is something darkly pleasing about seeing such a man downtrodden. This is a weak and evil impulse within us, but it’s one that’s existence can and should not be denied.

    This week, however, both the intrinsic hunger for justice and the lofty goal of true freedom of expression are happily allied, as we await a decision from the BC Human Rights Tribunal which could both vindicate McLean’s magazine, and signal the beginning of Canada’s return to the moral high ground. To do this, the tribunal must return with a decision finding McLean’s utterly faultless. Anyone who wishes to claim that they are a supporter of free expression must not just wish for, but scream for, this outcome. The last week has seen both sides present their case – one case for freedom and liberty, one case for ignorance and censorship – and now the Tribunal deliberates. Its decision should be returned this week.

    This issue arises from the BC Human Rights Code, Section 7-1. This very small, very insidious law can be condensed to its essence, which simply states the following: One may not publish ideas which are “likely to expose” people to “hatred or contempt.” That little law, in all its brain-paralyzing stupidity, is the source of this shameful display of cowardice on the part of the BC Human Rights Tribunal.

    Why do I claim that the tribunal is cowardly, already? After all, it’s perfectly possible, even likely, that they will return the correct ruling, and so deliver a blow to the confidence of the pathetic and litigious drones who believe themselves incapable of encountering opposing views. It is cowardly because even if it takes that step, which would certainly be to its credit, it has agreed to hear the case at all. The equivalent Ontario tribunal, which received an identical complaint about the same article, refused to hear the case. And the BC government’s abject cowardice has not gone unnoticed.

    What with Islam having been something of a hot topic in the past few centuries, the story has been attracting attention from publications both around Canada, and around the world. Several American publications have come forward with sneering and self-satisfied looks at how the “rest of the Western world” handles free speech. These articles cast our government as backward, archaic and quaintly simple-minded, in contrast to the American commitment to protecting even the most disgusting of bigotry.

    The truly sickening thing about these pieces is that they are utterly convincing. Our laws prohibiting so-called “hate speech” bring us richly deserved ridicule from the United States. It is precisely issues like this which allow America, for all its faults, to look down on Canada as its constitutional inferior. And guess what: As it relates to free expression, that is exactly what we are.

    No matter the ruling, however, this case has had one positive effect: People are finally becoming cognizant of the horrendous laws governing free expression in BC, and in Canada at large. In 2002, several subsections of the Human Rights Code were stricken due to their utter inanity. If even the slightest sliver of wisdom exists in our judicial system, Section 7-1 will be next. Write to your MP. It really is important.
  • edited June 2008
    This happened in Alberta (watch the video), but I think the same principles should be relevant here.

    You can't just say "don't worry, be happy" and forget about it. Any infringement on free speech is a serious problem and it cheapens the "freedom" of the society we live in.
  • edited June 2008
    That video is AWESOME.
  • edited June 2008
    Morro;31465 said:
    I was using myself as an example of someone who does not respect this bullshit law.
    I was actually using you as the personification of all those who don't respect thsi bullshit law and are still here. Making up a fictional person is never the best way to argue.
    Discourse is built solely and specifically on extremely outrageous statements. It's the right of every citizen to ramble hatefully and inchoherently, if they wish to do so. It's also the right of every other citizen to call them stupid. That's how free expression works.
    Wouldn't giving every citizen the rights to spread hate just lead to division and ultimately lead to the undoing of society?

    Look, I know the line between freedom of expression and hate speech is very fine. This is why we need to find the right balance by establishing very clear rules and regulations on what can and can not be said.
    As to the Peak, I think it's just that it's the summer semester, and they get very few submissions at this time of year.
    I send two articles to the Peak last year and they publised it with open arm.
    Ether;31466 said:
    You can't just say "don't worry, be happy" and forget about it. Any infringement on free speech is a serious problem and it cheapens the "freedom" of the society we live in.
    Yeah, any infringement on free speech is indeed a serious problem. However, don't you think we are over-reacting to BC Act Human Rights Code Section 7-1?
  • edited June 2008
    While we're on the subject, here is the absolute best talk I've ever seen on free speech, made by Christopher Hitchens in Toronto.
    Part 1:
    [youtube]EUphTYPMB4o[/youtube]
    Part 2:
    [youtube]9jnD4Mc3VUw[/youtube]
    Wouldn't giving every citizen the rights to spread hate just lead to division and ultimately lead to the undoing of society?
    I would argue that attempting to impose limitations on the speech, and thus the thoughts, of citizens is the first and most important step towards fascism. Anything else I could say is said in the videos above in far better form, and with a far Enlishier voice, than I could ever muster. I will highlight his early point, however: When you silence a speaker you restrict not just the right of the speaker to speak, but the right of the listener to listen.
  • edited June 2008
    Yeah this article should be illegal as it offends them terrorists.
  • edited June 2008
    Student0667;31464 said:

    1.) English as a Second Language program. This program in itself is racist and reminds me of South Africa's aparteid. However, this program would also expose their students to hatred because some may argue that it is taking away funding from non-ESL students.
    I know you aren't trying to validate the above point, and was using it as an example I'm taking out of context...but at SFU for example, the ESL programs are funded in a different manner than credit classes...they are not in direct competition for funds

    Anyway, do you remember how pathetically angry some of the muslim world got over that cartoon? Holy shit, that in itself should be a reason to outlaw Islam, they [ some ] went and rioted and burned shit over a drawing. Outlaw religion, not free speech. There are already laws covering hate crimes. For example, assault, and if hatred is involved the sentence is upped as an aggravating factor sometimes. I don't think there is anything under the law to make religious hatred an aggravating factor, which is a shame.
  • edited June 2008
    randomuser;31478 said:
    Anyway, do you remember how pathetically angry some of the Muslim world got over that cartoon? Holy shit, that in itself should be a reason to outlaw Islam, they [ some ] went and rioted and burned shit over a drawing.
    How nice of you to mention the cartoons. Those cartoon are totally unnecessary and tasteless and should never have been drawn in the first place. Believe it or not, I am actually on the side of the Muslims in that issue.

    While I do not condone the violence and unrest that resulted because these TOO are unnecessary, I understand their anger.

    It is hard to comprehend the angers of the Muslims because we westerners doesn't have a figure or imagery that we hold sacred and any desgregated of it would be deem blasphemous.
  • edited June 2008
    Don't North American christians / catholics whatever else (all the same to me) have a god also? What makes muslims god (same thing?) so much more sacred? People insult christian god all the time, you don't seen them getting their panties in a knicker as bad.

    (I'm not making this point to defend Christians [ please dont think I am ], more show the unreasonable acts of some muslims in regards to the cartoon)

    This is what religion does, it allows people to give themselves some inflated self importance, cause of course, their god is the right and real one.

    Muslims [ some ] opinion on women and gays: Do you see us women going out and burning the Quran after they make inflammatory comments about us? Do you see the gays going out and burning religions buildings down...?

    I know I'm female, none of them have ever met their god, they know females exist. I think my gender should be put on a higher pedestal than a religion. As a man you can't understand the discrimination against women-- that still exists, not so much in North America, but overseas.

    I love Christopher Hitchens, will they ban religious hate as well as non religious? I'd like to see the bible banned.
  • edited June 2008
    Outlaw religion, not free speech.
    LOLZ, irony!

    Anyway, Student, try try try to always be aware that your opinion of the matrial doesn't matter at all. There's a reason the first thing I brought up was a holocaust denier. It doesn't matter how horrible the speech, it has to be protected. In fact, the protection of distasteful, offensive and unpopular speech is vastly MORE important than the protection of any other kind. That's precisely what free expression exists to protect. You can think whatever you want about the cartoons, but it's simply shameful to give even the slightest measure of understanding to people who use violence and intimidation to silence dissent. I don't care if you disagree with the people they're threatening. That's not the point.
  • edited June 2008
    I'm aware of the irony, but you can't deny the logic.

    I know, I know, deny the right of crazy people to talk about their god is violating freedom of speech

    I just dont think there should be any protection for such ludicrous criminal shite

    Note: it's a crime to be an aider or abetter to a crime; to walk around professing the truth of a hateful god should metaphorically be instigating active crimes
  • edited June 2008
    We need a good ruler... let's clone Hitler... Doesn't Russia have his bones or something, lol.
  • edited June 2008
    Morro;31461 said:
    The Peak is about to get a very vulgar, very rambling, very angry opinions piece. :p
    I'm glad you're writing to the Peak, I was going to do that myself but I had to do other things.

    ===

    There's nothing, absolutely nothing in the article that could possibly incite hatred in any reasonable person.

    The problem with Canada and the rest of the "civilized" world is that our government values enforced, superficial, harmony over the one freedom that is central to a democratic society. This article is representative of this perspective, and actually implicitly criticizes the US's position on free speech.

    Our hate-speech legislation is based not upon facts, but upon feelings. You could say something totally true, and have undeniable proof of it, but if it hurts some minority group - especially one that tends to blow people up - then you'd be committing a hate-crime.

    That to me is extremely dangerous, the first signature of any fascist regime, and we Canadians are doing it all in the name of not offending anyone...well guess what? Nobody has a right not to be offended!

    The sad part is that our constitution actually makes room for such pervasive government censorship.
  • IVTIVT
    edited June 2008
    randomuser;31480 said:
    Don't North American christians / catholics whatever else (all the same to me) have a god also? What makes muslims god (same thing?) so much more sacred? People insult christian god all the time, you don't seen them getting their panties in a knicker as bad.
    Not the Muslim god, the Muslim Prophet. THAT is what they are upset about.
    Apparently drawing images of the Prophet is a nono
  • edited June 2008
    Who drew pictures of me?!
  • IVTIVT
    edited June 2008
    randomuser;31482 said:
    to walk around professing the truth of a hateful god should metaphorically be instigating active crimes
    I pray, read the Bible and go to church. So now i'm a hate mongerer along with all my Christian friends?
    I don't know any racists, gay bashers or misogynists and yet I'm guilty of their crimes? Wow.
  • edited June 2008
    IVT;31511 said:
    I pray, read the Bible and go to church. So now i'm a hate mongerer along with all my Christian friends?
    I don't know any racists, gay bashers or misogynists and yet I'm guilty of their crimes? Wow.
    you're not guilty of the same crimes that the true followers of your religion commit, but you might not be completely blameless either. It depends on whether you contribute to fostering an environment in which the aforementioned people could thrive, and many religious people do indeed, especially in islam where almost everyone, nomatter how normal they appear to be, are fostering the growth of the violent few who truly adhere to their religion.
  • edited June 2008
    Primexx is right, but be aware that 'blame' is meant (by me at least,) in the purest sense. Not legal blame, but rather moral blame. By supporting an organization that kills and generally destroys lives, direction and indirectly, you support those actions. You're not legally responsible, but I do wonder how you justify being part of an organization that demonizes condoms in AIDS-ridden countries.
  • edited June 2008
    IVT;31511 said:
    I pray, read the Bible and go to church.
    The three biggest mistakes of your life.
  • IVTIVT
    edited June 2008
    Morro;31514 said:
    Primexx is right, but be aware that 'blame' is meant (by me at least,) in the purest sense. Not legal blame, but rather moral blame. By supporting an organization that kills and generally destroys lives, direction and indirectly, you support those actions. You're not legally responsible, but I do wonder how you justify being part of an organization that demonizes condoms in AIDS-ridden countries.
    I'll leave that for the Pope to answer.

    for the last time: do not assume that Christianity and Catholicism are the same.

    Are you saying that i condone the touching of little boys as well?
  • edited June 2008
    do not assume that Christianity and Catholicism are the same.
    Don't assume that the Catholics are the only ones poisoning third world countries.
  • edited June 2008
    IVT;31525 said:
    I'll leave that for the Pope to answer.

    for the last time: do not assume that Christianity and Catholicism are the same.

    Are you saying that i condone the touching of little boys as well?
    uhh...catholicism is one of the largest sects of christianity...and one of the more modernized ones at that......

    in any case...i won't assume what you do or do not support, but i will give you an anecdote on Islam:

    Recently Jordan summoned the danish cartoonists for the crime of blasphemy, and the lawyers stated that if they don't show up themselves (in jordan to face the ridiculous charge), they'll ask interpol to apprehend them (good luck). On a discussion about this where most people mocked jordan for its reality-distortion vortex, several muslims actually spoke in support of the summons. The discussion also wondered onto the death threats that have been made to the cartoonists.

    I asked in the thread, why - if muslims all over the world are saying that they're being stereotyped for all being extremists - is there no uproar in the muslim communities of the world protesting against such idiocy as jordan, and the death threats? After all, aren't those the ones who are causing prejudices against muslims?

    One of the answers which i remember crystal clear, was that while he disagreed with the "extremists" killing people over it, he in fact agreed with the message they were sending, and was "showing the world" who was really being persecuted.

    Uhh....WHAT??? Did he ACTUALLY say that????? Yes indeed he did.

    Later, when I brought the Jordan summons up in a tutorial, someone to remain unnamed - presumably a muslim (i wouldn't rule out the slim possibility that it's simply someone familiar with islam) - reiterated the idea that drawing a cartoon IS blasphemy, and also stated that the depiction of ANY prophet is blasphemy. I asked about Jesus (and the lack of uproar to depictions of him everywhere), to which the reply is that it is indeed considered blasphemy, but that it is "respected" because he is a figure of another religion. I can't help but note the hypocrisy, unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to press forward with my line of questioning.

    Now, this is just a hypothesis, but I think the reason there is no muslim opposition to the so-called "extremists" they are all too quick to distance themselves from, is because they AGREE with them. And while they are demanding equal treatment from the rest of us, they're condoning the efforts of the most devout to oppress and even annihilate the very people they are demanding equal treatment from.

    Making room for the exceptions who obvious exist, and speaking solely of the people who match the above hypothesis: I don't think they deserve the unprejudiced treatment they are asking for, I don't think there's any reason for me to treat them as significantly different from "extremist" muslims because they are just as threatening to my personal well-being as the extremists.

    Why should I be sensitive to your religion when your religion calls for the cold-blooded murder of myself and my loved ones? No sane person would do that, and if muslim communities wants their demand for peaceful coexistence to be taken seriously, then the first thing they could do is to actively oppose the immorality that they presently foster and protect from criticism.

    p.s. in case you're wondering why i'm only talking about islam, because a) that's the subject of this topic after all, and b) i can't take it for granted that as a christian you'll think logically about your own religion, but past experience of many many have shown that people think completely reasonably when it comes to religions which they don't personally follow, so once you understand the concept with regards to islam, all you have to do, really, is to dumb the degree of violence down a notch, and apply it almost verbatim to christianity.

    EDIT: This cartoon seems appropriate.
  • edited June 2008
    IVT;31525 said:
    I'll leave that for the Pope to answer.

    for the last time: do not assume that Christianity and Catholicism are the same.

    Are you saying that i condone the touching of little boys as well?
    1)You'll leave your own ideology for an old man to decide rather than yourself? Because he has supposedly heard the word of god....schizo...

    2) Sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck -- its all the same to an atheist, besides shouldnt there only be one god? therefore, one religion is wrong, or mistaken, so whats the harm in referring to them all as the same thing, one has to be right...right?

    3)By supporting your religion you indirectly are, I'm sorry but it's true, your hands are not clean. The only reason that happens is because it forces gay men to devote their life to god in someway. Have you ever read interviews with one of the people convicted of that, why they became a priest? Eventually their inner 'demons' escape after a life of being closeted. I'm not defending this, but its no wonder it's such a big problem in the church.

    How often do you actively say things to your family and friends when you morally disagree with something they say? It's all a progression, think things first, then you say them, then those words become actions.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Anyway to be on topic, this bill is bad, and it will definitely be one sided, only stopping anti religious hatred rather than religious which currently is still defended by law.

    My comment about outlawing religion was obviously hypocritical, and I realized that before I hit submit. But right now, the scales are balanced in favor of religion, I'd be curious to see a world where it is the opposite, or at least equal. Look how peachy things have been for the past 2000+ years (it's a shame we don't have a real based time line, not one based on some fictional child born to a hermaphrodite version who impregnated herself, SINNER!? I'd like to see Stan Lee make an issue of that "What If" series in a world where religious thought was as silenced as terrorist thought.

    IVT, what do YOU think about the bible and its hatred towards women? How I should be silenced, and not speak. Do you just ignore those passages? These passages aren't even the one atheists have to metaphorically interpret, they are in plain language making me a sub human. Bible should be the first thing censored, condoning hatred and violence in plain terms.
  • edited June 2008
    1167967099-471614-250x200-motivator63703
  • edited June 2008
    JayDub;31554 said:
    1167967099-471614-250x200-motivator63703
    Funny cause its true
  • edited June 2008
    Or: "Islam is a peaceful religion, if you say otherwise, I'll fucking kill you."
  • edited June 2008
    randomuser;31548 said:
    By supporting your religion you indirectly are, I'm sorry but it's true, your hands are not clean.
    Why are you trying so hard to make him feel bad for being religious. Just because he goes to church and reads the bible doesn't mean he has blood on his hands. I frankly dont give a shit about the religion/atheism debate... I have more important things in my life to worry about.
    If IVT wants to be a christian, let him be and stop telling him he is indirectly responsible for the crimes of some horny old priest.
  • edited June 2008
    lazyGUY;31563 said:
    Why are you trying so hard to make him feel bad for being religious. Just because he goes to church and reads the bible doesn't mean he has blood on his hands. I frankly dont give a shit about the religion/atheism debate... I have more important things in my life to worry about.
    If IVT wants to be a christian, let him be and stop telling him he is indirectly responsible for the crimes of some horny old priest.
    Its free speech, which is the topic of this thread in the forum--I'll do whatever I want. I don't have a 'god' given right to speak, but the law lets me. I will accost any christian I ever meet guilt free, if they can or has accept(ed) a religion that condones hatred or slavery of women in their sacred document. This very right is coming under fire, you should be very concerned, but maybe you aren't accustomed to this, being a possible ?white? male aged 18-36.

    Christians should be aware of the thousands of years of bloodshed and conflict as a direct result of their religion.

    I'm not trying to make him feel bad either, he can either accept the facts I present or deny them. If you don't directly do something should you even feel bad? You can't have our cake and eat it too. For example, I have no right to criticize capitalism in a system I help support. I buy clothing items made in other countries for .10 cents, and I'm quite aware of this.

    Again, you should be concerned about theism vs atheism. The entire consequence of this law is what is at stake which you SHOULD be concerned about. Your right to criticize something insignificant like scientology could be at stake here, yet religious rights are defended constitutionally, trumping your own personal rights vs those of a fairy tale.
  • edited June 2008
    The devil makes people religious

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